John Niland (00:00)
Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. My guest today is Borana Taraj. Borana is a Gestalt Therapist who not only has been through her own experience of chaos, which she'll tell us about in a moment, but works with many of the effects of chaos with her clients today. This might be people with burnout. This might be people going through relationship difficulties. All of the...
abundant fruits of chaos that ⁓ society suffers from. Welcome, Borana
Borana Taraj (00:32)
Hello, John, and good morning to everyone. Thank you for inviting me here today.
John Niland (00:38)
Nice to be here. Whether it'll be morning or evening when they're listening, we have no idea, but hey, to be here. That's life. So let's begin with yourself, Borana. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the change and transition you've been through over the last few years?
Borana Taraj (00:44)
That's life.
Okay, so, well, there have been, let's say, many transitions in the last year. Somehow they happen at the exact same time, by chance or not by chance. But, well, one of the biggest transitions that I've been through is that I have become a mom in the last year. So that has absolutely changed my life upside down. And another...
life transition that I had to go through and unfortunately this was not a choice. It's life bringing to that. I lost my mom a few years ago and life has not been the same without her since. And well, from a professional point of view, because somehow this also happened more or less at the same time frame, I have been through a career transition where for many years I used to work as a
⁓ project manager and well, European projects policy officer, while now I identify myself as a Gestalt therapist.
John Niland (02:08)
Yeah. Now you used the words, I identify myself and we'll zoom in on that in a second. ⁓ It sounds like there was a change of identity.
Borana Taraj (02:20)
Absolutely! Yes, indeed, indeed! Well, for me, ⁓ the professional life has always somehow defined my identity because ⁓ I have always been very much engaged in everything that I have been doing professionally, starting of course, before starting the professional life, starting from the studies, university, from the trainings that I have done throughout the way. So, every time for me,
John Niland (02:22)
Can you say a bit more about that?
Borana Taraj (02:49)
This was not only simply gaining knowledge, but it was somehow discovering one part of me. starting with my university studies in international cooperation and then in European studies, for me this was a way to be in contact with a wider society, meaning that ⁓ looking what is going on ⁓ in Europe, the world and how our societies
⁓ organize between themselves and mainly when you also want to make a change through European collaborations, having also an identity of a European Union where you are not simply single states and single citizens of this area or another, but you're a citizen of a much wider area. also, well, when I started university, one of my dreams was also
work with communities all around the world, especially in developing countries, those countries at which I have been struggling a bit more in terms of economy. And that means also, well, from a political point of view or a geopolitical or strategic point of view, et cetera. So this is how I started. this ⁓ indeed defined a big part of my identity for many years.
And then, ⁓ at some point during my career, while working more more with people, partners and collaborators across many countries, I realized that somehow by working on the macro level, what was missing was also to zoom in into what is going on, into the human being, ⁓ more as a separate entity.
that has its own dimension of the physical part, the emotional part, psychological part, spiritual part. And in a certain way, it was difficult to do it both at the same time, when you work in the macro and you work in the micro. So, I decided that I really want to somehow zoom in and work much closer with the emotions, with the, let's say, all the beautiful human dimension as well.
John Niland (05:10)
And what was going on for you while you were ⁓ finding your own way through this transition from the macro to the micro?
Borana Taraj (05:19)
Well, somehow the first word that came to my mind, but of course I'm influenced by our podcast today, was chaos. ⁓ Yes, because it was somehow difficult to understand why was I, let's say, exploring new ways. So at the beginning it was just going into some trainings, discovering new fields that for me were new, mainly related to psychology.
which I had always been fascinated, actually. I've always been fascinated by studies like psychology, sociology or anthropology. But at the same time, I was somehow also discovering myself more and more, because when you also start studying how the human being somehow interacts with the world or how it also can
better somehow discover what is within its inner world and the complexity of its own functioning. You also start questioning who are you, what does it mean for you and yes, how you have been changing and how much it is possible to change being always in contact with, let's say, different kinds of experiences, let's say, people.
and new experiences. And these shaping you.
John Niland (06:54)
And in the middle of all that, you lose your mom, you become a mom ⁓ pretty much around the same time. And it sounds also as if you were really invested in your previous career. You had studied it. You had studied European and international society development, et cetera. It wasn't just a job. You had a big calling for the macro.
And then somehow you have actually gone, no, it's the individual I'm interested in. That must have been quite a turbulent time.
Borana Taraj (07:38)
Indeed, well, not only I felt a call, let's say, while engaging myself in my different activities, but I somehow also adapted my own life. First of all, I changed country. So I left my family of origin. I'm originally from Albania, but then we're in Italy, so my family is still in Italy. Then I came to Belgium.
Brussels, which seemed to be the place where I could make the most of the impact. since then, well, I always was in contact with people from very different cultures and different countries. And for me, it was just so obvious that I would not come to Brussels just to be in contact with people that I already knew from, for example, from my Italian community. I really wanted to be in contact and to
let's say, well, be open and be somehow taught also about other ways of living its own culture, its own identity and living the relationship because that is absolutely amazing when you see it, the different cultures. What seems normal in a certain society is absolutely different in another one. for me, it's open.
John Niland (09:01)
Can you us an example? Can you give us an example of that?
Borana Taraj (09:04)
yes, definitely. I'll give a funny example, of course, there are many, but ⁓ once I was at gathering with friends in Brussels. normally these were very international gatherings, people from all around Europe and around the world as well. well, normally in Brussels, we do kiss each other when we meet someone. So it's part of, let's say, of the Brussels culture.
where it is allowed, no matter where people are coming from. But in this case, there was ⁓ a young man from Denmark. So, when I went towards him, just to greet him, to kiss he just backed, like his whole body backed from me going towards him. And I said, ⁓ I'm really sorry, I'm really sorry about that. And then I remembered that this is not because he was...
angry or he was annoyed by me. Because I know that in Scandinavian or Northern culture, it's another way of getting in contact. And then throughout the evening, that was funny because at the end, I said bye to everyone while giving a kiss while Tohima said, okay, I respect you so I don't want. And in that case, he said, no, it's okay. I'm getting used to that. So it's fine for me. We can greet each other through a kiss.
John Niland (10:32)
I the joke during the pandemic, I forget which Scandinavian country it was, where ⁓ they were giving out about the two metre rule and they were looking forward to the end of the pandemic so they could go back to their usual five metre.
Borana Taraj (10:47)
Exactly. I personally have experience because I come from Albania, which is quite south and it's the Balkans where normally we do kiss five or six times when it's a cheek. And then coming from Italy where you can be two or three and well, Belgium normally it's one, but then of course with all these cultures you need to adapt and to sense, mean, to respect the differences while at the same time, let's say also
offer a new way of doing it. was in the case with the Danish friend where finally he was like, I'm fine with it. But well, this is, let's say the funny part, but one part of your question also mentioned why these were so turbulent times for me going from having this, let's say, change of personal investment as well. So it didn't come easy. So it came also with a burnout.
meaning that somehow what I thought that it was for me easy to go through because I had always ⁓ big, big, big ⁓ will to go through challenges, difficulties, and I go through that and I'll find solutions. And I mean, there were for me no really big barriers until then that would let me down. But in this case, it was myself.
who let me down in that case, meaning that my body, my ⁓ psychological health were not responding anymore as before. So, despite me and my big dreams, I had to slow down. And that was a big, big internal conflict with myself, which I could not accept for some time.
And only thanks, let's say, to the support of professionals who helped me throughout the time, doctors, psychologists, therapists, I realized that, it was not what I had in my mind that I was used always to do, to go strong through the difficulties. But in that case, I had to accept somehow. ⁓
my body, my mind, my emotions, they were not functioning as usual. So everything needed to be slowed down and to recover.
John Niland (13:20)
You you work with many people today who are going through similar things, skipping forward a little bit to your current work. ⁓ You mentioned burnout there as one manifestation of what happens when people are, let's say, in transition or of any kind, because we have all the demands of the day job and on top of that, we are developing.
in some way or other. it's like many people are carrying two jobs with them.
Borana Taraj (13:55)
Yes. And for me, it's important perhaps if I, sorry if I interrupted John, for me, the professional and the personal dynamics are essential in this case, meaning that sometimes we do not know what is going on into our personal lives. So in my case, for example, I lost my mom, I became a mother and at the same time I was going through this transition, which I had not really anticipated. So.
Yes, sometimes it's not only about you, but it's external factors as well. As human beings, we are more vulnerable in certain moments than in others.
John Niland (14:30)
Yeah.
And we know on this podcast, for example, many of the examples that people have brought to the podcast ⁓ are where external factors and internal factors came together.
Borana Taraj (14:51)
Absolutely. Yeah, there is no distinction.
John Niland (14:55)
There's no distinction
in the resulting chaos.
Borana Taraj (14:58)
We
are not living in an island. We're always in interaction with other people.
John Niland (15:06)
So coming to your work today, ⁓ and I'll work back a little bit to the self-worth aspects later on, ⁓ coming to your work today, what are the issues and the challenges that you see around you ⁓ with people in Brussels or beyond who are navigating their own version of transition and chaos?
Borana Taraj (15:30)
Yes. Well, if I might somehow summarize in just a few categories that I encountered the most, it's very difficult because of course each person comes with a different story, a very unique, let's say, environment, very unique also responses to that story. But somehow,
What I can identify as big challenges in our day societies is a loss of meaning and the loss of somehow stability, which translates in higher levels of anxiety. In, let's say, all ages, I'm working mainly with adults, but I can see this starting from 18 years old.
to 70. this is for me, this somehow my understanding of the society, let's say of the macro level does not come as a surprise because what is happening within ourselves as individuals, it's always interrelated through the security that we can find in the relationships, in the system of support that we have, which is the closest to us.
be it family, be it, let's say, institutions that can support us or maybe bigger entities. In some cases, I'm talking about villages because there is also a big system of support which goes beyond the family for some countries. ⁓ And also what is going on at the level of
let's say politics and the financial insecurity as well, where it's, let's say. ⁓
movements that we see that are going to our society nowadays, which are big challenges in terms of political stability, economical financial stability and so on. And it's not only related to where we live, it's a widespread problem, let's say, as well.
John Niland (17:57)
So you've mentioned two things there. You've mentioned a loss of meaning and a loss of stability. How is this affecting people? You mentioned anxiety, any other effects?
Borana Taraj (18:09)
Well, ⁓ there is a certain degree of conflicts that then arises where you do not have stability because you do not feel you can, ⁓ you are somehow in a certain way always feeling under danger. ⁓ So stress levels also are higher. Right. That means that a certain level of conflict with ourselves because we are struggling to feel.
let's say stable and we're starting to feel safe. But at the same time, this can also be translated in the relationship that we have with people closest to us. conflicts in relationships, well, it mainly affects families, relationships between parents and children. But what I have noticed more and more is also a high degree of stress into the couples nowadays. Because the couple somehow is
the new way of organization in our societies where this is where you build the stability. But in certain way, ⁓ many, many ⁓ paradigms have been changing throughout the years. So we rely a lot on the couple, more than perhaps relying on the extended family, extended village, or for some countries it's
big support from institutions and at the same time, well, there are big challenges that the couple cannot respond to. So that's why this creates sometimes a conflict into the couple because people are under stress, distress and they are struggling to respond.
John Niland (19:57)
Yeah. And certainly we've known for many years that professional crisis often causes relationship crisis.
Borana Taraj (20:06)
Yes. Absolutely.
John Niland (20:09)
But it's interesting, you've teased out two aspects of that that I not really thought about before. One is the loss of stability and the other is the loss of meaning. When both of those things are going on at the same time, that places a lot of stress on a couple and on family situations.
So, your work today as a Gestalt therapist, how do you deal with that?
Borana Taraj (20:39)
Well, in a certain way, what Geshe's therapy has taught me is that we are all the time into chaos. So, somehow chaos cannot be avoided. It's how we live into chaos. So, ⁓ if I can just say a few words, perhaps Geshe's therapy is part of the psychotherapy family.
but with a very particular, let's say, view on how healing can happen into people, into groups, into families, et cetera. And this is by working with them, first of all, in the here and now. So we are trying to bring change into the lives of people by focusing on what is happening today. So we will...
go and look at what has been happening in the past or what might be the preoccupations about the future, but only to the degree that this is somehow sustaining the person to function today. at the same time, we always see the person as part of the environment. We will never focus on the person, on what is going on in their thoughts, if we do not put the person in contact with the world around him.
Why am I saying that Geshe Theropi has taught me that chaos is part of the process? We start ⁓ from ⁓ a methodological ⁓ assumption that everything is experiential. Meaning that if we do not go into experiencing certain
or possibilities of change and healing.
with the people or with the families and the groups or the couples, ⁓ we are not bringing real change. We are imagining change. But that means that we do not have certain answers. We do not have ⁓ not certain answers. We sometimes we do not know exactly what are the answers because we will be discovering this in the experience itself. this is somehow... ⁓
a revolutionary way of looking at psychotherapy as it was before, where you would work more with diagnosis. So you start from a general theory and try to understand each person. While in this case we try, well, we have of course theory, but we try to forget theory when we are working with the people. So this is one of our ways of working. So we try to be absolutely...
Not knowledgeable anymore, anymore.
John Niland (23:38)
Always difficult.
Borana Taraj (23:41)
Yes.
And to see what is really unique happening in this person that cannot be put in any category or in any, ⁓ let's say, ⁓ paragraph or certain book that you might have been reading. And working with a person where he or she is at that exact moment with a very unique experience.
So meeting the person as closer as possible where the person is. And we believe that we can do this only by putting aside all the theoretical approach. Of course we do use theory, otherwise we would be wild in the nature. But chaotic. But we think that only by starting with recognizing the multitude of possibilities.
and trying to meet the uniqueness of the person that we can get closer to his experience. So that's why at the beginning, when we started working with the client, we start from the assumption that we have no idea. a certain degree of time, we have no idea what exactly the person is going through. So it's the person who will somehow teach us what they are going through.
This part is also the part where we are more navigating to uncertainty, trying not to come with hypothesis too early. Which might not be the right ones because this might be the hypothesis that we have been reading in books, but each person is different.
John Niland (25:12)
This sounds
Indeed, well adapted to chaos by the sound of things. So if you had a magic wand and you could bring a gift to all of the people going through stress and anxiety and loss of meaning and loss of stability and relationship issues and all the things we've been talking about on this episode today. If you had that magic wand and you could bring them a gift, what would it be?
Borana Taraj (25:48)
Okay, yes. Can I bring two gifts?
John Niland (25:52)
Bring two gifts. ⁓
Borana Taraj (25:57)
Okay, well, the first one, I would say to somehow trust that it is temporary. Somehow, when you are going through challenging moments, very difficult moments sometimes, also ⁓ big episodes of anguish, which sometimes are very unbearable.
where the person to go through. To remember that somehow it will pass. It is temporary, meaning that if you are living through a certain degree of intensity or if you are going through ⁓ also long periods or perhaps it's not so intense, but the stress and the difficulties are always there and they make you tired. Trust that
it cannot be the same all over again. So, there are moments when it gets better. It might be that then there are moments when life hits again. So, I'm not promising here that things will get better forever and there will not be setbacks. But definitely, for me, one of the big lessons that I've learned, I think, in my life is that
you sometimes you fall and but you can rise again. And this I think I had, it was somehow losing my mom who taught me this because I had the impression that by growing up things were going better for me. Things were much easier compared to, know, when you are younger and you have other kinds of struggles you are.
creating your own ⁓ identity, personality, you are building relationships, professional careers and so on. But in that case, I realized that it didn't matter all the work that I had been doing and all, let's say the work also about myself and the development that I had been going through and that I had been investing in myself, life just hit me. So, in this case, it's absolutely human.
John Niland (28:20)
And the second gift?
Borana Taraj (28:23)
Well, the second gift is something very easy, but very difficult perhaps sometimes to achieve. It's about presence. So, ⁓ be surrounded.
Ask for support when needed. Ask for advice to a friend. Ask for a hug. presence is a big part of the healing process.
John Niland (29:02)
Hmm. What a great note to end on. Thank you for joining me today, Borana.
Borana Taraj (29:09)
Thank you, John, and thank you to all for listening.
