Being a Friend to Yourself, with Claudia Vettore

Claudia Vettore shares her experience and insights on managing stress, self-worth and resilience in times of chaos. She discusses the importance of mindfulness, language, and cultural perspectives in understanding ourselves and navigating uncertainty, especially for professionals in high-pressure environments.

Topics

• The challenges of perfectionism 
• Stress and chaos management
• The role of language and culture in self-worth
• Facing difficult feedback
• Mindfulness and self-compassion techniques
• Language shapes our reality and self-perception
• Befriending ourselves is key to resilience
• Acceptance is the first step to facing reality

Chapters
00:00 Navigating Chaos and Uncertainty
03:22 Finding skillful language with the self
08:13 Dealing with Judgmental Culture
10:09 Facing Harsh Feedback in Tough Environments
15:54 Specific challenges for conscientious people
18:13 Resilience and Acknowledging Reality
21:40 Claudia's Work with Corporates and Students

Keywords

stress management, self-worth, mindfulness, resilience, chaos, culture, language, professional stress, mental health, uncertainty

Guest Contact Details:
For more information about Claudia Vettore, see her website https://www.claudiavettore.com/themindfulcloud/

Thanks to Jacopo Lazzaretti for the intro/outro music:  https://jacopolazzaretti.bandcamp.com/album/secret-love

For all contact details (including our Associates) and useful self-worth resources, see www.SelfWorthAcademy.com

Transcript

John Niland (00:00)
Welcome to Self-Worth in Times of Chaos. Today I'm joined by Claudia Vettore in Milano, in Italy. Claudia works with people who are combating the day-to-day stresses of living and working. She blends mindfulness teaching, tango therapy, meditation, all kinds of fabulous things. Working with

both individuals and groups, ⁓ hospitals, first year students at university, if I'm not mistaken, she's just finished a cycle with Spotify. Welcome, Claudia.

Claudia Vettore (00:31)
Thank you, John. Thank you very much for inviting me.

John Niland (00:34)
Now what if I got wrong in that introduction?

Claudia Vettore (00:38)
Nothing. You know, I'm a perfectionist, so no, it's perfect. It's perfect. I yeah, I like to say that I help people understanding their patterns and what leads them to stress, which is something that that really we can all relate to, not to manage or fix in terms of ⁓

one more thing to do in our lives and and one more like self-development practice because we're we're so full of that. So it's more about and that's why it connects a lot to to self-worth. We have so much input already that actually I try to go into the opposite direction of removing, doing less, pausing and looking, observing at our patterns, but also at our resources.

А what we can really put into place to support ourselves.

John Niland (01:32)
Fabulous. Well, we will come back to that and and more ⁓ in a little bit, but let's first, as always, start with the chaos. ⁓ what's your experience?

Claudia Vettore (01:44)
⁓ I'm a pro. Well, you know me. I've been changing so many countries and cities and and of course professions as well and situations, cultures, and and partly because, you know, it's it's my background studying languages and cultures. ⁓ it's my nature, I would say, but I I feel like you know people nowadays are talking much more about chaos and uncertainty, but it's not something new for me.

It's it's a condition that I've I've lived through all my life, having to change so many different ⁓ well, roles and and cultures and and positions. So I've had to face many times the the question of like who am I at this point and how can I bring something ⁓ that is still relevant at this time. Of course, this is still true. It's it's always been true, but even more so.

at this time with AI, as you are well aware of, since you've created a special program focused on that. I mean, so I ⁓ I really appreciate your input because it's a particularly challenging time in terms of yeah of uncertainty, chaos and and and finding one's identity ⁓ at a time when it's difficult to feel you still have or at least it's difficult to

Make other people feel you still have something to contribute and and to offer that is that cannot be offered simply by a machine or, you know, something else.

John Niland (03:22)
How has your relationship with yourself evolved while you've been navigating that path?

Claudia Vettore (03:28)
well, I started by saying that I'm a perfectionist, and this is unfortunately still true because it's I don't believe in changing our nature, but I believe in changing the way we relate to that. And I've been working on that, and it's a lifelong job, of course. but I really feel that I have many more tools now to support myself. ⁓ starting with mindfulness that I that I came across with

12 years ago, and and that has really ⁓ pushed me to start observing again my patterns, but also with an attitude, and this is where I think also we we connect a lot, with an attitude that is not that of judgment of what is missing, which is typical of the perfectionist, but more of

What are my challenges? Am I doing the best I can do? How can I be supportive of myself? Because in the end, what counts is really the attitude. And if if like we know that judging oneself is not really useful or skillful, as the Buddhists say. I I love some Buddhist language is so accurate because it's not it's

Totally non-judgmental, which I love. So it's not about ⁓ is this good or bad or is this is this, you know, ⁓ profitable or or not? No, it's like is it skillful? Is it really helpful or not? And many times our patterns incl or our modes as you call them, ⁓ to be able to show our value or

⁓ be liked by other people and be appreciated are really counterproductive in the end. They don't really support us. So no, they're not skillful. So what I I have been trying to do through mindfulness and self-worth is to support myself in a different way, talk to myself in a different way, or using a beautiful verb that we don't have in Italian. And as a linguist I I I'm always interested in that because you know like a language and reality are so related.

is to befriend ourselves. I love that verb in English. and it doesn't exist. You have to say, be a friend to yourself. But I mean you d you don't have the the the verb itself. Just as we don't have self-worth as a word. I told you that before. It's like every time I have to find ways to paraphrase it, but we don't have that concept. And it's very telling I think of a culture.

John Niland (05:47)
And it doesn't it doesn't exist in Italian.

Claudia Vettore (06:11)
Because we have of course self-esteem, we have anything that is related to sort of ⁓ evaluation. But ⁓ but in terms of well when we have self-love or self ⁓ own we have something that translates into our own love, law love of our own, which sounds it's a more proper and it's more like ⁓ pride. Show some

love for yourself more you know like as be assertive or something like that, which is totally different because again it doesn't give you that sense of kindness and and support that you use with a friend. So the idea of friend.

John Niland (06:54)
As you say, language

is super important here because if there isn't a linguistic way of saying something, then the chances are we don't understand it very easily.

Claudia Vettore (07:07)
Exactly. Exactly. And it's ⁓ well, it's been studied by linguists of course. We all know the famous examples of the Eskimos having so many ways to call the snow. But I mean it makes sense. Like our reality is really I mean our language is shaped by our reality. And ⁓ and it's very it's very telling for me when when I when I cannot translate a word because I'm like, wow, then we're not really aware as a culture.

John Niland (07:15)
What do you do?

Claudia Vettore (07:37)
that this ⁓ concept exists, so we'd better explain it, you know, especially in this case.

John Niland (07:43)
Stepping back from the linguistics just a little bit, I think it's fair to sum up and say that so much of our culture is judgmental. I mean, we see it in our education. I know we have talked about this before. We see it in our society, we see it in the way we compare ourselves with others, we see it in the ratings that are popularized across every aspect of living. Judgment, judgment, judgment at every turn.

Claudia Vettore (07:54)
yes.

John Niland (08:13)
And you've mentioned that ⁓ this is one of the things you've worked on. Where have you seen change?

Claudia Vettore (08:18)
in in really in the way I treat myself at challenging times, w which are still there. And something I always say, it's like mindfulness or self-worth or not about, you know, eliminating bad weather or or difficult situations. But as soon as I mean awareness allows me to see that I'm starting to really get upset with myself and with the way I talk to myself and

That's when I can ⁓ use this befriending to compensate or or like these mantras that you suggest that we should use. And I I find them very useful because it's not I mean, again, it might sound as something at first like this sort of yeah, like imposed external tool that you formal thing that you do, but actually I find it very powerful and I I use it also with

the people I work with and I see that it's ⁓ it's something very useful, like to have some something that you prepare in advance for some difficult situations and that you try to use when it's needed. So independently of of what's going on, or actually especially when things are difficult, because that's that's where the real challenge lies, right? So

So this is something that has has really changed and has allowed me to ⁓ again not to get rid of my perfectionism but to soften it a little bit and to get out of it a bit faster. So this is the my my goal is not so much to to change completely but to to recover more rapidly. It's a bit the idea of resilience, right? To to to just okay. And

And possibly to use situations as ⁓ of course something you can learn from because you don't want to keep getting into the same situation, but always remembering that at any time we've tried to do our best and and sometimes it's not very good, but that's life and and that's happened.

I mean, i it happens, it happens. Even even for a perfectionist when you do your best. But it there are times, for example, when I as you know, as a freelancer, maybe I do too many things and I end up working too much and then the quality is not necessarily what I would like. And sometimes it's ⁓ I I get some sort of not perfect feedback and it's really hard to accept at first. I mean, I can

But in the past that used to like bring me down for days and days and now normally it's much faster. And that's already great for me. I think it's it it's good enough, let's say, which is which is already a lot.

John Niland (11:14)
Conscious,

you're talking to me from Milan, and Milan is ⁓ well known as an area where standards are high. You know, it's it it is, it's a it's a high standard environment. And I know that the culture of northern Italy isn't particularly forgiving when it comes to not meeting up to standards. ⁓ so I can well imagine that there is a lot.

Claudia Vettore (11:24)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Thank you for pointing

that out because for people that don't know Italy very well they might think, ⁓ Italy, you know, Bella Vita, Dolce Vita, and everything is relaxed, but not always. No. No.

John Niland (11:45)
⁓

yeah. Not the north. Not Milan.

And and ⁓ I'm sure there's many people in France and many people in other ⁓ both environments, ⁓ working in law, working in accounting, working in anywhere where you know there's no marks for not getting it right. ⁓ there are many ⁓ people working in environments which are harsh, which are tough from a standards point of view. And

They probably are not going to change. what would you say to someone who is living through that, who's who's living through a, you know, an environment that hasn't been on mindfulness, right, who which isn't particularly Buddhist in it in its mentality? what would you say to someone who's who's living through harsh feedback in that kind of setting?

Claudia Vettore (12:42)
Hm, it's a very hard question because of course, as in any relationship and our our life is based on relationships, whether private or professional, it takes two to tango to to refer also to my other passion of tango. So in companies, I see often that on one side ⁓ they really they need to s show that they offer some kind of support, but then the daily conditions are not really supportive. So that

That is really a paradox that is hard to justify to people that then come and tell me very often, well, yes, that would be nice, but it's not the the context I'm in. So I'm I mean, I I don't have a final solution because I really think that one should also look at whether the context they're working in matches one's expectations. And I mean if it's worth it, because it's

But it's good also to question one life's choices since your your work is something very significant in your life. it's ⁓ working a lot, I think, if you really want to to give it a try and and live in a situation that is very harsh on on our reactions, on not taking everything personally, on not focusing on

right or wrong on letting go of that and seeing whether you can still find purpose in what you do in in your contribution. there there's a beautiful Zen story. I like I love Zen stories about the stone cutters. I don't know if you've heard of that, building a cathedral. And now I'm quoting like I don't I don't know if I remember it correctly, but there's somebody walking around this this ⁓ construction site

And asking the first stone cutter, what are we doing? Or can't you see? I'm I'm building this thing. I have to work, I have to survive. And the second one was ⁓ I'm I'm I'm working to support my family, and I'm proud of the fact that I'm working. And the third the third stone cutter was asked, and and he replied, I'm building a cathedral. And this to me is ⁓ is very strong because I mean exactly the same situation.

And we're not talking about ⁓ I'm the manager of the CEO of this big company. So I'm we're talking about quite a well from a socially point you know point of view, social point of view, not a high-level ⁓ position. But this if if this is the way, if you manage to work in this way, then you can stay, I think, whatever the the context. The the moment you feel that you cannot really

connect to that, then I think it's fair to start you know, considering how else you want to spend most of your life, at least until retirement, if you ever if we ever get there. So ⁓ I don't know if I've answered because because I cannot really have a direct answer, but it's ⁓

John Niland (15:42)
Yeah.

⁓ it is ⁓ a rather important thread and it's it's emerging as I do these interviews and and the research that goes with it. ⁓ the current environment is particularly hard on conscientious people. ⁓ because the people who followed the educational pathway and did what was expected of them in the workplace, you know, who followed the process, ⁓ are

The very people who are often most impacted by what's currently going on. ⁓ There is a fantastic interview in this series with ⁓ Maria (Goranova) who's ⁓ who first raised this, and it's a thread that's come up multiple times now. The the current environment of chaos and not to mention AI and all of the other disruption that's happening, ⁓ is

particularly hard on people who have high standards for themselves, high expectations about living up to ⁓ career goals and lifestyle aspirations. And of course, life just isn't delivering for so many of them.

Claudia Vettore (17:04)
Mm-hmm. And I relate to this completely. I mean, I I feel I'm part of these people in many ways. So it's not a challenge that is not, you know, that I can give lessons on. I can ⁓ I am. I have been looking for ways to deal with the situation because I still think that ⁓ ca chaos or uncertainty or change if not.

taken to you know ⁓ abruptly or from too close can really be in be interesting. But it's true that this this wave is particularly challenging and as I was telling you before. So mm

John Niland (17:45)
Yeah. And it's it's

a wave that will impact certain ⁓ professions even more than others. As Maria Goranova mentioned in that discussion, ⁓ she talked about those working in banking, insurance, in in many of the companies where, you know, high standards were important. And and now these are the very people who are feeling most threatened by the

Claudia Vettore (17:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

John Niland (18:13)
chaos and the unpredictability around them. Which takes us back to this topic, of course, which is being loyal to ourselves, to be befriending ourselves during during this time. You've mentioned the benefit of resilience. What what other benefits have ⁓ has this plethora of tools brought to you?

Claudia Vettore (18:17)
Mm-hmm.

Well, the first of all the the ability to to get up again and also to really face reality. I would say this is another big skill here, skill still in the Buddhist term, not in this ⁓ performance, you know, like oriented approach, is to really face reality.

⁓ we are experts because we don't know what to do. You know, one of the we are experts in freezing, I guess, a lot of the time. Among the three, you know, fight or flight, or freezing is very common right now because we literally don't know what to do. So it's a form of resistance to me, and resistance is just so useless, so unskillful.

and it uses up so much energy, you know, like again fighting or fleeing or or freezing or hiding things from from our reality. it's okay for a while because sometimes it's it's shocking to be close to something. But the sooner we learn to ⁓ acknowledge the situation, we don't have to accept it in terms of, ⁓ wow, everything is an opportunity, you know, that's the that would be nice, but it's not always the case.

But acknowledging is I think a duty towards ourselves because we we stop that like snowball phenomenon of resisting and making it worse and making it worse. You know, there's another ⁓ metaphor in Buddhism that is the second arrow. I mean, life throws an arrow at you.

And instead of looking for ways to remove it, you throw another one and another one by saying, I don't like this, I don't want it, I don't deserve this, it's not fair, and all those things. And ⁓ if we manage to keep it at the the initial pane of the first arrow and it looking and looking at ways to remove it, it's much easier. Or as as as Byron Katie said, I think, but maybe maybe ma many other people said that. But I I I remind my this is another of my mantras.

If you start fighting against reality, you're always going to lose. So it's really just wasted energy, basically. ⁓ and this is something I would say that that I have learned to to try and have the courage, you have to be courageous to to at some point say, Hey, this is the way it is. Come let let's find useful ways to support myself through this situation.

John Niland (21:15)
Indeed, and courage is so significant when dealing with times like this. So let's come to your work today. we've mentioned that a little bit at the beginning. ⁓ tell us a bit more about the work you do. I know you've just finished ⁓ some corporate programs and you're also doing work with university students. ⁓ what are the typical challenges that they're dealing with?

Claudia Vettore (21:40)
Well, first of all, my challenge is one of the challenges in especially in the corporate world is to underline the importance and the depth of the kind of practices that I bring. Because until a few years ago nobody really knew much about mindfulness and now it's become something that everybody knows about. There are lots of sort of quick fixes that people offer or that are

asked by requested by companies and I I spent a lot of time explaining that it's not exactly like that. I mean, so I've I really I really want to bring back my things to where it belongs, which is ⁓ much more I mean it it's hard work. You it uses a lot of ⁓ practice, formal practice like meditation, which needs to be constant because we work on

Basically on neuroplasticity, on creating new habits through the brain, and it's something that luckily we can do, we know that now, even at an older age. So of course the the earlier the better, but even later. But this needs practice, it needs training and it's hard work in that it needs some discipline, it's not something that can be fixed in half an hour of ⁓ some kind of session in a company.

So this is something that ⁓ people need to understand. When it's not possible, I try to still say that and and and offer some input to people that then will independently start maybe some kind of path by themselves. ⁓ and of course there are different ways to look after yourself. I just I just ⁓ I feel that I I'm successful when I I make people aware that they can do something.

on about this and ⁓ but most of the time unfortunately I still think that what companies offer is really not enough. But maybe it's an exposure to some possibility that then people can deepen by themselves. And then lately, yes, I had this opportunity of also teaching at ⁓ this ⁓ university and medical school, which is for me is even more relevant because I mean we're talking about doctors. I mean

People that are, I mean, among the the categories that are the most exposed to burnout and and and also that have to deal with people with other people tomorrow tomorrow. And these are students, so to make them aware of their own reactions and patterns really helps them also

empathize more, be closer to people that they are going to ⁓ care for later in life. I mean, and it's something that is totally ⁓ I mean absent from I mean today if any doctors at least need I speak for it ⁓ show some kind of ⁓ human connection it's only because of their nature but it's certainly not something that they're taught at university I mean or during their studies and the human side

Of anybody working in the clinical world is so relevant. I mean, that it cannot be neglected. So the fact that this university had this idea of offering this, and again, it's only a short program, but but I see that these students have never really been aware of this. So I can when I see this kind of change, you know, this is when I feel that okay, this is I'm bringing something, that I see that they're seeing a new perspective.

And it's only a seed that they will need fo to to, you know, water for a long time. But at least they had this opportunity and ⁓ and I really hope that they can cultivate it a little bit more to to keep the metaphor.

John Niland (25:43)
Really good. Well, I think ⁓ what a great note to close on, the idea that health professionals and those on the on the front line of ⁓ people's well being would themselves be getting some experience of this, ⁓ even if it is just a short sheep dip as part of a a bigger course. But the fact that you are raising awareness in that type of work, certainly gives great hope for the future. Claudia, thanks so much for joining me today.

Claudia Vettore (26:12)
Thank you very much for inviting me.